Well, actually, Phoenix was (at the time) taking a shot. He's taken several in the past. Hence a touch of reticence on our towards him. I won't say anymore than that actually.

The reason a lot of so-called vigilantes/crime-fighters are accused of frauds by us is simply that they cannot show their work. And the thing of it is, if they were really doing it, they could. It doesn't even have to be in a way that calls attention to them or casts the ever-lovely "media whore" tag on them.

Let's use the Flashing Blade example: No, he didn't have to give up his identity or give interviews, or anything of that nature. All he had to do was go out and avert a crime...In what could be considered a "superheroic" costume.

Here's another example: Also, in the UK, a would-be thief broke into a house only to be deterred when the home's occupant, dressed as Thor, came at the burglar with a hammer.

What's the thread here?

Simple- Both performed acts that could be considered vigilante in nature. Also, both did them in costume. And in these cases, both got press.Also, neither of them really sought any media attention. They got it because of what they did...in a costume.

The point is, and this is from personal expereince: If you do ANYTHING like that in RLSH attire, you WILL be written about, regardless of what you give the media.

People in weird outfits stopping crimes make news (hell, people who do ANYTHING in a weird costume makes news). I don't care who you are, what kind of costume you wear, or where you live. If you do something of that nature in a costume, it makes the news. Period.

Keep in mind, the police often work with the media. Ever read those "stupid criminal" sites? Where do you think the media gets their stories? From the police, who will CALL THEM and say, "Hey, you are not going to BELIEVE what we picked up today!"

Also, if these vigilantes really WERE active, even if they are not seen by the police or the public, the media would pick up on the story. You would see headlines like, "SERIAL VIGILANTE STRIKES AGAIN!" for example...

Another thing: I am the "unoffiicial" fact-checker for this site. When we receive new applicants, I'm the one who pores over their information online and investigates any claims made by those who wish to join. In fact, I just recently had to investigate claims made in one applicant's blog, even going so far as to place phone class to the local police precincts in the person's area. The response I got over and over again? "No...and if we HAD run across something like that, we'd be talking to the papers"

So...there ya go.

PS- Just so folks know, I have been accused of being a media whore. I would just like to point out that this tag is largely inaccurate, as by definition, whores get paid.

I don't get paid.

Therefore I'm a media SLUT! Get it right now, kids

.

I think the point I was trying to make really was that you can be doing alot of different acts and not get any media attention. But when things like that happen there is no way of proving if the rlsh acted or didn't. If the cops are on the same playing field as you and you have a mutual understanding with them you can be kept out of media for a long time. I have 2 people who work for the police (1 is a cop the other is in the help desk who deals with providing info to local papers etc) willing to cover for me once I start.

I could just be lucky with my contacts as I also know people in illegal organizations here that don't agree with certain things some of their members do, and they are wanting something done about it. None know what I'm planning on doing other than the cop, the guy at the helpdesk is a friend of his he will give the info my buddy tells him, but I believe I am gonna be well covered. The cops here won't stop a vigilante, they don't arrest anyone in the IRA etc and they know everyone in those organizations. 2 British soldiers were killed yesterday by the IRA and nothing will ever get done about it.

The Sentinel

I know the police around here will hem you for any vigilantism. Allbeit I am unsure where I stand on the subject of faith in my local p.d.

Altho most self defense weapons are legal, you can still be charged with carrying a deadly weapon here. a deadly weapon is anything more than mace. including rope. This makes a hero's work in actual crime fighting counterproductive as you commit a crime by carrying a weapon.

So, my work is more subtle than crime fighting, less fun than media coverage, and more incognito than spandex and a logo. I drive. A survallance, mobile post, charity delivery machine is being concived as we speak. I don't have such a strong chin, but I do have quick hands, and foot work not many can claim. Now my mission is STREETLEGEAL, so speed is not of importance, but still a factor. I will be testing the final build of the car by running my own lower lakes 1000. If all goes well, I plan to begin charity work and patrol by august. But car builds like to have temprements, so who knows.

I think there is a misconception.
Here is what I see. I know there are a lot of dudes out there who are undercover. I can only judge their blogs or statements based on my own experience. When I read "I've taken down a entire gang with only my martial arts training and my grappling hook" chances are that is a made up statement. If I read a patrol blog or something that has what appears to be things that would actually happen, I am more likely to believe it. I personally don't require pictures, although we do for the rlsh site. But if you tell me you swooped down from ontop of a building, took out 10 guys and manage to do that in complete metal armor, I call shinangins. There are only a handful of people I believe get into fights all the time. Dudes like Master Legend or the Protaginist. What the causes of those fights consist of, I have no clue. But certain details described in their blogs and stuff do jive with what I know and seen people do.
This forum is pretty much more pro law and what we can do to work within those limitations.

I didn't realize there was so many fakers out there. Well if it makes the rlsh community feel better I will provide evidence of my actions when the times comes. Altho if some of my action are morally grey I'll leave those out.

There is a large amount of fakers. disturbing really. and black knight is right, it's all kids with angst and something to try & prove to everyone on the internet. however, their choices are their's alone. more than one of them will end up like the kid from kick ass. execpt that kid lives. that's the comic book flaw of not being able to kill any body, ever.

i've worked no cases i've completed yet. my only standing case (my first was solved by the pd before i even had a lead) find this damn street racer. he's been using a turn right by my house to test his new car(maybe parts). that's why i'm even up at 3 am. you can hear him coming from about a half mile away. hopefully tonight i can actually snap a picture of his licence plate. crafty guy has his brake lights on a switch and hence no tag lights, so i missed him last time. photo evidance if he rolls again and i get the pic.

~cheers~

An idea that has been tossed around has been getting cash together to get a background check account. I think it's like 30 bucks or something. I wanted to buy something like that as a resource, but very few people don't seem into it. But hey, if it helps with detective work.
Also, my wife works in home loans and knows a lot of sites to get information about property for free. I'll ask her tomorrow to get links.

In my experience, the police do not like anyone like us...period. They will cite the "vigilantism" laws to some degree to take away credence to what we're doing. The media in my humble opinion serves no purpose other than to sensationalize ANYTHING to get ratings and drive traffic to their websites. Frankly, it's nauseating to have to tap dance on eggshells if one of us DOES a media interview, watching each and everything we say, so it will not be taken out of context (on purpose) and modified to sculpt us into a lunatic fringe. I will not do media interivews, and I pretty much avoid police unless I need to call them to assist, which is rare. I have one trusted officer on the GRPD that I work with. As far as anyone in Grand Rapids is concerned, i'm an urban myth.

I feel we're having to defend ourselves a bit to much to the police, media and the general public. Everyone wants a better world, and when a "sub culture" or a group of caring individuals WANT to make a difference, it's a media circus. Frankly, I don't care about "vigilantism" laws. I see a need I help, period. I do not condone violence, but as stated before, I will not stand by and allow someone to be hurt / killed all the while I contemplate the consequences of my actions based on the laws of man.

Guys, there is so much crime that the police in my area never stop or see, it's beyond comprehension. Muggings, rapes, break in's, robbery, assults, vandilism, gang activity. There are parts of Grand Rapids the police will almost avoid as the crime is so rampant there, that they make little to no impact on it. The bad guys are arrested, bond out and go right back at it. I would rather they fear an urban myth and have to look over their shoulders in fear. I witnessed 2 punk gang bangers beating the hell out of a middle aged black woman who worked at the local plasma center on a really bad side of town I patrol, taking her purse and kicking her and laughing while she was down. No lights, an alley exit to the parking lot, gangs and drugs eveywhere. This woman has an honest job, and they put her in the hospital. The one little shit who kicked her in the face 3 times will not be using his left knee again, and the other kid i'm sure pissed himself when I came out of NO where and gave it back to them. Yes i'm MAD about this. That woman suffered a sever concussion, 4 broken ribs, lost 3 teeth, may lose eye sight in her right eye, multiple bruses and fractures I cannot beging to count. Did I worry about "vigilantism" at that point?? HELL no!! That incident onlyl strengthens my resolve!! Do the police have evidence? yes they do, the little bastards who did it to her, and her testimony! THAT will put the little scumbags away, I hope! That woman could have died alone in that alley, not a polie man in site!

Faithfully,

Sentinel

It's not so much about what we say but what we do. Listening to people brag is always annoying but what do any of us have to prove to each other?

Quote:

“To be humble to superiors is duty, to equals courtesy, to inferiors nobleness.” Benjamin Franklin

In regard to the police, I was really impressed with what Lieutenant Jeffrey Silva said in the Phoenix article, out this month. I found it very fair and professionally stated.

Quote:

"We prefer to be the only costumed crime fighters out there," says Lieutenant Jeffrey Silva, a police spokesman. He says the department is aware of real-life superheroes, but they have yet to cross paths with them. "Although they might be well-intentioned, we don't endorse citizen patrols, because we don't know the level of training," says Silva. Even so, he concedes that any help to police is welcome. "Anytime someone wants to get involved and help police, we see it as a good thing, so long as they don't work without police participation. We prefer people to be the eyes and ears of the police." But what about the strange costumes? "Well, fortunately, we're not the fashion police," states Silva." - thePhoenix.com

My view is that a lot of Police Personnel see RLSH's as a threat because many are not certified to handle a lot of situations. RLSH's hide behind masks on occasion and may not want to endanger loved ones by testifying in court where they have to appear in civilian attire and give their real names, so a defense attorney can shred whatever evidence is put in their path, even video or pics if they can raise enough doubt. The bad guys are armed much better then we are, some are better armed then the US Military at a small unit level. And RLSH's dont intimidate witnesses into testifying, as the bad guys will do to pull testimonies. While the public RLSH's that go out there and do the important missions of food drives and charity works, giving blankets to the homelss SHOULD do that, so RLSH's need to stay in the shadows, scare the bad guys in that way

Tiny Terror, As much as I loathe to admit this (because I've had some less than savory exchanges with certain people claining to be RLSV) I begrudingly admit that most of your posts are educated and compelling. It is good to have a counter point of view like yours that are generally well thought out and give some much needed moments of introspection. It seems that you are not here to try to convince the RLSH to stop what they are doing but rather look at the methods by which they do what they do and I can honestly respect that.

Using the example of the Sentinel interceding with the attack against the defenseless woman, what is your opinion along the lines of right and wrong of what he did? The reason I ask is that many times I have posed the very similiar situations to some RLSVs and simply asked them questions like "Should a RLSH passing by ignore the plight of the victim and wait for the police to arrive while he/she calls them even as the victim is being pummeled right before their eyes or should the intervene regardless?" Another question I asked them was "Does it really matter whether the RLSH is in costume or not or is the safety and well being of the victim not paramount?" In most cases I ask these questions and the responses are derrogatory commentary and evasiveness. Personally, I think the Sentinel did what was right. I just took an Emergency Medical Dispatch course and we heard recordings of people calling 911 and in distress. It's shocking knowing that in some cases the difference between life and death was like a minute of real time where the victims were able or not able to get some form of medical assistance.

And as for the media, I agree with you on many levels Tiny. The media generally tends to gravitate to news that is negative, controversial, and a ratings bonanza. We need the media but the media, through it's practices, does not always serve the better interests but rather their own. With them it's about numbers which lead to advertising revenue which leads to lots of $$$. As for human nature versus animal nature, anyone who thinks human beings are less savage than baser animals is only fooling themselves. It's just that our savagery is more sophisticated.

My opinion is that if the RLSH follows the Good Samaritan laws or at the very least intervenes in a situation where the threat of grievous harm or death to another human being is imminent then shouldn't it be a moral imperative to try and save them? Anyways, sorry for the rambling. I just wanted to get your thoughts on this. Thank you.

TT retired last week. May he find the peace and resolution he is looking for.

Wow, lots of interesting views expressed on a variety of topics here, so I will put my 2 cents in. First of all, cops share information. The stranger, the better. If one cop knows about you, you can be sure his entire precinct has heard about you. There is no true anonymity for a RLSH that has been exposed to police. As far as the ability to prove your activities, the underground RLSH should never be able to prove their activity and should, by definition of being underground, never lay claim to their deeds. Also, investigating a crime independently of police can lead to legal complications if evidence you have given police is objected to by a criminal defense attorney in a resulting court action. If you want to be effective, be sure to know and adhere to the laws of evidence in your jurisdiction. Regarding vigilantism, there is nothing wrong morally or legally with intervening to stop a crime in progress. Police advise against it, but it is not illegal. Vigilantism comes in to play when, after hearing of a crime, you hunt down the alleged perpetrator to enact your own version of justice. If you witness the crime, it is not vigilantism to make a citizen's arrest, within the boundaries of the law. If you believe that criminals are cringing in fear at the thought of any RLSH jumping out of the shadows to thwart their evil plans, you need to put down the comic book you're reading. The plain truth is that in most cases, even the ones you have fought will be increasingly better prepared for you if they encounter you multiple times. They will also fear the police much more than any RLSH simply because the police have greater numbers and legal authority to act. RLSH have done an awesome job all over the world, and should be encouraged to keep at it. Whether you choose to be private or public, though, you should operate within the law. There are many things you can do to prevent crime or stop one in progress, but the focus should always be on protection rather than punishment. While you are busy pummelling an assailant, you cannot very well be checking the victim for life-threatening injuries. There are many techniques to deter crime that can be effected from a distance and without exposure. Use them first when applicable before directly intervening, and you may stop a crime before it escalates to violence.