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Shade Gargoyle

Category:
 | Subject: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:04 am | |
| Hello, all. I am "Shade Gargoyle" - almost certainly not my final superhero name, but it seemed serviceable enough - an aspiring Superhero in Training. I must admit, joining you all in this forum is quite daunting, and, to make matters worse, I seem to be having difficulty finding the proper place to introduce myself. I hate for my introductory post to be something so demanding, but, again, I can't seem to find any better place to introduce myself, and I am in need of your practical expertise, so... Here we go.
As someone who grew up regarding heroism and selflessness as the greatest qualities in humanity - and raised on Batman: the Animated Series, no less - I have essentially planned to become a real life superhero since further back than I can physically recall. Although I had eventually resigned to compromise on my dream by serving the people in more conventional ways (Since superheroism is widely regarded as highly dangerous, unrealistically expensive, and physically taxing, among other things), only to feel my desire reawaken almost a year ago. This desire was further fueled when I eventually stumbled upon this site... And all of you. Learning that there were others who felt, and dreamed as I did, and, indeed, had the courage to take action to realize this was absolutely indescribable.
As I had mentioned above, I have always wanted to pursue altruism, but, after discovering this community, I began to create a more detailed course of action. One area which I seem to be having specific difficulties with is the creation of my armor. I have done some research on various materials that I might employ, but I thought it would be best to seek the advice of more reliable sources.
Thus far, I have considered steel, titanium, polyethylene, carbon fiber, Kevlar, Nomex, ceramics, Dyneema/Spectra (Ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene), fiberglass (After reading a recent comment by Urban Avenger), and even wood. If the information I have is reliable, then I believe Dyneema/Spectra may be the best option for me, as it is almost entirely knife-resistant (This I know for a fact, as it is used in slash/stab proof SWAT/correctional equipment), very lightweight, it resists electrical current(?), it retains its strength in the coldest temperatures on Earth - as opposed to other plastics, which become brittle, and shatter in the cold - and I believe it offers some ballistic protection as well. If any of you could verify or correct this, it would be extremely helpful. I must also admit that the idea of fiberglass armor is quite intriguing to me, as it is very available, inexpensive, and inconspicuous. Also, would any of you happen to know the differences between its properties and those of carbon fiber, specifically? I have also been considering that an option.
Keep in mind that knife resistance, light weight, high strength, and durability in extreme low temperatures are the most desired properties, in this situation. Ballistic protection would also be ideal, but I imagine I should layer a Kevlar vest underneath, as well.
Thank you all in advance, and do pardon my request. Keep fighting the good fight. |
|  | | Urban Avenger

Category: - Crime Fighter
- Public Service
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:42 am | |
| Thanks for the plug, always brings a smile to my face when someone mentions something I did or said. Shows I must be doing something right. Now that my ego is sufficiently satiated...
I like fiberglass because like you said, its cheap, and inconpicuous. No one looks at my armor and sees fiberglass. They just see some red motocross armor and think nothing of it, or that its just a fancy costume piece. Is very unassuming and I love it.
As for the other materials, I'm not too familiar with them. I'd hate to invest in some fancy polymer just to fuck it up later on during a situation, or sheer clumsiness, and have to spend a signifigant amount of money replacing it, and waiting for it it come in the mail. I don't think you can just run to the store and buy more right?
Underneath my stab and blunt force trauma armor, I have my level IIIA vest, that I picked up on ebay for $264. And yes, my armor is as stab proof as I say it it cuz I've tested the motherloving crap out of it.
The difference between carbon fiber and fiberglass is metal. Carbon fiber is extemely expensive and degrades over time, at least that's what I've read. And I've seen some cars that have had carbon fiber hoods on them that have gotten old, faded or broken. Its extremely hard to patch up (because of the process) and expensive. We're talking about woven metal fabric essentially. Fiberglass does about the same thing for our purposes, and is infinitely cheaper and more readily available.
I can go to walmart any da of the week and buy enough supplies to keep my armor maintained for a very long time, for around 25 bucks. That includes resin, cloth, primer and paint.
As for wood..? Eh, I dunno. I understand the appeal, Ii do believe Fear had made some sort of stab vest out of wood and polycarbonate. Another good material, btw. But kind of expensive. I use it in conjunction with fiberglass.
Titanium? Maybe if you are signifigant wealthy. That stff is the farthest from cheap. I think its several hundred dollars for a square foot. Not sure on the exact price. Then there's cutting it, shaping it and anything else you want to do to it. If you got the resourcess, go for it.
Nomex is good. Fire resistant up to 800 degrees I think. That's F for all you C users out there. Lots of good gloves and masks, and probably other clothes made out of this stuff. I think its slash resistant too. Decently priced. I don't have any, but I've been impressed by what I've seen and read.
Anything else I skipped cuz I know nothing about the stuff. |
|  | | Shade Gargoyle

Category:
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:03 am | |
| Thank you for the reply, Avenger. I must say, your argument for fiberglass is quite convincing: I knew it was cheap and available, but I had no idea it was that inexpensive. My only worry is that it might become brittle in the cold temperatures, as I mentioned earlier. Once again, this is a fairly significant concern for me, as the winters in my city tend to last as long as six or seven months, with temperatures dipping to -40 degrees, and sometimes lower.
Also, if I may, what is the reasoning behind the polycarbonate backing in your armor? Does it help to distribute the force of impact, or is fiberglass alone sufficient to protect you from knife threats?
I very much appreciate the information on carbon fiber, I might add. For what it's worth, you have probably just saved me thousands of dollars. Just as well, though: I had been considering it as an option for mostly superficial reasons... I'm a huge sucker for that sleek, glossy black finish it has.
Thank you again for your advice, Urban Avenger. Keep fighting the good fight.
Last edited by Shade Gargoyle on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|  | | Urban Avenger

Category: - Crime Fighter
- Public Service
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:14 am | |
| The polycarbonate backing was originally how I had intended on keeping my armor stab resistant. But my best piece had become broken when someone tried to punch me. I was fine, they were not. Fiberglass was the only real. Solution to fixing it, without buying a whole new piece of armor. Mine is faily unique, and I didn't want to change it. I had found it at a thrift store for 6 buck, and the closest one to it I could find was around 40. So I patched it up with fiberglass, and after about 10 layers it had pretty much become unbreakable, and unstabbable. Sort of unintentional, but it worked out break. I've decided to leave the polycarbonate on for additional protection and a crumple zone. |
|  | | Shade Gargoyle

Category:
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:00 pm | |
| Hm... So, again, is the polycarbonate backing a necessity for knife or blunt trauma protection, or would the fiberglass alone be sufficient? |
|  | | Urban Avenger

Category: - Crime Fighter
- Public Service
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:11 pm | |
| Enough fiberglass would be sufficient. But it needs a dense foam liner for serious shock absorption. If someone punched me hard enough they would break their hand. |
|  | | Shade Gargoyle

Category:
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:14 pm | |
| Well, foam is obviously quite light, so I doubt that will be a real problem. Thank you once again for the help, Urban Avenger. This has been very educational. |
|  | | Urban Avenger

Category: - Crime Fighter
- Public Service
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:17 pm | |
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|  | | Bridges

Category:
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:27 pm | |
| Polycarb will help stop a blade, given the proper thickness. My understanding is that more than 1/8th inch (NYI/Victim) will stop most of anything except a UA-thrusted stilletto - because he's ridiculous like that.
At thicknesses greater than 1/8th of an inch, say 1/4th in, it can stop small caliber fire (22 long - Captain Illumination). With .16 gauge steel on top, I believe it'll stop FMJ .40 cal at point blank (Victim/Steel Fist). You'll want a lot of padding if you're going for ballistic protection however.
As for blunt force, The Newt, Skeleton Key, and I can vouge for polycarb and proper padding (ca 3/4 in of high density foam). I got the crap kicked out of my chest armor multiple times and barely felt a thing. Large pieces of polycarb are key to distributing the force evenly. Once Victim gets the Deadfall built, we can test a little more precisely for the failure point of polycarb (and anything else, for that matter), but chances are the forces that thing will produce will never be seen on the street. I hope not, anyways.
I'm curious how a fiberglass topped poly carb would do, you might need fewer layers of the fiberglass to achieve stab proofing. I might have to get back to you guys on that. one. |
|  | | Shade Gargoyle

Category:
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:58 pm | |
| Thank you, Bridges. Steel is most likely a little too heavy, considering I want to stay as light and maneuverable as I can, but this kind of practical information is always valuable, and appreciated.
So far, it seems like I want to go with about 10-15 layers of fiberglass, and a quarter of an inch of polycarbonate underneath.
Also, since it seems like a lot of these more domestic materials - plastics, especially - are more useful than I had previously assumed, would any of you happen to know how resilient Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) plastic is? It's quite widely available, and fairly simple to shape, as far as I am aware, so I simply thought I should ask. |
|  | | Bridges

Category:
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:41 pm | |
| PVC is awful. It shatters and will not show up on x-rays.
Also, a kevlar vest is a must if you are going to be anywhere that you might be shot. |
|  | | Shade Gargoyle

Category:
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:49 pm | |
| Alright, good to know. Although the Kevlar kind of goes without saying. At any rate, thank you once again for your input, Bridges. |
|  | | Urban Avenger

Category: - Crime Fighter
- Public Service
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:26 pm | |
| Kevlar is nifty, if you can get raw sheets of it and the resin for it, you can shape it like fiberglass, essentially making ANYTHING bulletproof. This requires special shears of course to cut the material. But its possible to make all kinds of custom looking stuff bulletproof. |
|  | | Bridges

Category:
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:17 pm | |
| I kind of want to find one of the fancy canoes they make from it and test for ballistic resistance. |
|  | | Shade Gargoyle

Category:
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:36 pm | |
| A Kevlar canoe would be incredible for a French-Canadian themed superhero: the Voyageur. |
|  | | Captain Illumination

 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:06 am | |
| You must take into account that there is many different types of Kevlar, not all Kevlar is ballistic grade. The Kevlar used in canoes for example is not ballistic. That being said technically polycarbonate is not ballistic either but it can stop bullets. Also if you take ballistic Kevlar sheets right? Say it takes 22 layers to make a Level IIIA vest. Well you need a proper backing to test it "IE a human body or ballistic clay" since the Kevlar stops a bullet by absorbing the impact and spreading it out. If you place a bullet proof vest on a sheet of plywood for example it will no longer be bullet proof since the Kevlar is no longer allowed to flex and stretch. Thus I'm not sure how good "solid" laminated Kevlar would be since it would be hard like fiberglass but at the same time it could no longer flex and stretch to stop the bullet. That being said enough fiberglass will stop a bullet so I would assume you would need less "Kevlar" fiberglass to do the same. So really it's hard to say with out tests. |
|  | | Bridges

Category:
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:38 pm | |
| I was kidding, those canoes are hella expensive, but definitely some good points anyways. Next time we do armor testing, I'll have to whip up some ballistics gel. I guess you can do it yourself: http://www.myscienceproject.org/gelatin.html
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|  | | Urban Avenger

Category: - Crime Fighter
- Public Service
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:39 pm | |
| How does one get to shoot non standard targets at a shooting range? Do you have to know someone? |
|  | | Bridges

Category:
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:44 pm | |
| When I was in Wisconsin, the ranges were outdoors and ran by locals, so you could get away with a lot. I had friends that ran room clearing drills at their range. I'm not so sure about elsewhere, but my bet is that if you go in the boonies enough you'll get lucky. |
|  | | E0N

Category: - Crime Fighter
- Public Service
 | Subject: Re: Armor Recommendations Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:52 am | |
| | Urban Avenger wrote: | | How does one get to shoot non standard targets at a shooting range? Do you have to know someone? |
I don't know what they have around SD, but around here you can shoot whatever targets you feel like, especially at the outdoor range. You basically just ask whoever runs it if they mind if you want to shoot at something weird. _________________ - E0N
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