links:
the church isn't willing to help
and dc's half way there


first of all i'd like to start by saying i am PRO same sex marriage. as a personal belief, you should be allowed to marry who you love.

that being said. the church provides care for thousands that would be abruptly cut off should they prove not to be bluffing. remember when dc was the murder capital of the country? well the homeless care provided by the church helped quell that for the last 15 years or so. because the gangsters havn't stoped killing each other. and aren't slowing down anytime soon. but over the last decade or so there has been a sharp drop in crime comitted by the homeless. connection? maybe...

be on guard heroes. this one may require some back up.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/12/15/dc.gay.marriage/index.html

and step 2 has been taken.

and i found out if not directly run by the church, most homeless care in dc is funded at least in part by them. the real problem is the thousands of addicts who wont be able to afford their methadone.

the church has basically said crack is back in dc. wwjd?

I agree that you should be able to marry who you choose. I also think you should be free to practice what you believe and not be forced to do anything that goes against what you believe. I dont really agree with what the church is doing but I understand why they are doing it. All the state had to do was put in that little disclaimer that they wouldnt HAVE to perform the marriages and they refused to do so saying it would be discriminatory. Well, by doing that are they not discriminating against what the church believes? Respect is a two way st.

What Basilisk said.

By the way, the whole "same sex marriage" issue in the church is really a "how do we interpret the bible?" issue. Civically, it's a different argument, I guess, but really, if you understand love (which none of us completely does), you understand that many times you love who you love and as long as it makes both parties happy and enhances their life, it's a good thing.

I PM'ed you, Nite Watch, and as I said before, I don't want this to turn into a huge debate. I think people who are followers of Christ get too tangled up in arguments like this and it prevents us from reaching out to those who hear Christ's love.

The Bible is fairly clear on saying that homosexuality is wrong. But it also says a lot of other things are wrong, too, like having tattoos, men having long hair, divorce, and I could go on and on.

I ultimately believe that we are all sinners, we'll all have to face judgment, but I cling to the hope of Romans 8:31-39, "For I am convinced that nothing, (Paul's long list) can separate us from the love of God through Christ Jesus our Lord."

So while I don't necessarily think "everything goes, it's okay", I do think, "hmmmm, I do this wrong, that wrong, I really shouldn't be judging people."

We are called to judge one another, especially if we see a fellow brother sinning, Rev. I can't believe you're actually sitting down taking this, all because you're afraid of what your members are going to say? You pick and you choose which verse contribute to which. Have you any idea what you're doing? You're bearing false witness to those who want to be guided. I leave this debate alone, though, because I want to get to know you as a person, and not as 'The Reverend'. It's a title and doesn't mean a thing to me.

We are all sinners, and we all have fallen short. But Reverend, I want you to remember this, and remember it well Romans 6:7-10 says," for when we die, we are set free from the power of sin. Since we have died in Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that Christ has been raised from death and will never die again. Death will no longer rule over him. And so, because he died, sin has no power over him; and now he lives his life in fellowship with God."

If Christ died for us so we may live with him, and if he says lay down our burdens unto him, why must I continue lying to myself and my people about sin? Why? If you don't want to accept this, then stop calling yourself a Reverend, because you're only serving yourself. If you really care about your cong..then tell them the truth. Tell them what God keeps trying to tell to you, but you refuse to listen; and I know he's been talking to you, lately.

Now, that's out of the way. Carry on. I agree, this will not be an argument. I just want you to notice something. If you feel I was being too harsh, again, PM me. By all means, we could learn a lot from one another.

Think about it.... SODOM and Gommorah. That's like how Philedelphia's the "City of Brotherly Love" and if you look up the Ptolomys, the descendants of Alexander the Great, Philedelphis was the nickname of one. It meant "Sister Lover" cause he married his sister.

some words are funny like that.

so since the root is biblical, let's not bring the church into it.

seperation of church and state and all.

Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

Luke 6:41 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Romans 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

Romans 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this-- not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way

lol, Atavistik. Yeah, I don't want to bring the church in. Just, I can't stand when someone who claims to be 'born again' down right contradicts his faith with Christ. BUT! I don't want to be Mr. RavenBlade..yikes, that was really...wow....I mean, I warned him not to continue, and he..well, he's banned. But yeah.

That's where Philadelphia came from, huh? What about turkey?

there's also something in there about "a man shall not lay with another man, as a woman". I too have read a bit.

more trivia- biblically; if you were to sell your' daughter, and she was ugly, you had to sell her to a foreigner.

A man should not have long hair.

to take a woman into your' house is to announce she is your' wife.

if your'child doesn't obey, you take them out and the town stones them to death.

God said all the plants and see-bearing fruitsI give to you, to eat, except for the fruit of the "Tree of Knowledge". does anyone here think he meant marijuana?

Like I said, let's leave the bible out of it. If you look close it seems that, at least for now, we are subject tothe law of man.

Na, that's just picking pieces of the bible apart. You'll have to present the verse above each and the context of which it was written. Also, those were the old testament laws, in regards to a man having long hair; in those days that was a sign of homosexuality. To take a woman into your house meant, if you are bold enough to get a prostitute or a woman and sleep with her, then you might as well get married to her.
whoa, whoa whoa, I don't remember the throwing stones part lol. But they did say, spare the rod , spoil the child; meaning if you don't discipline your child then they will not respect you as a parent. You cannot eat Marijuana, not straight out,. but he does say that our bodies are like a temple and we must treat them with respect, so that rules out the marijuana theory.

If you'd like, I can talk to you about all those things.

Oh yeah, forgot about the ugly one, meaning, if you sold your daughter ( as she was to be a prosti, or whatever) then you should give her away to a foreigner who does not know any better, as it would have brought shame to that household. :-D

Lev. 18:22-man not lay with man

Exod. 21:7-11-selling daughter into slavery

Deut.21:18-21-stoning disobediant children

there is some dispute as to hair length, depends on which translation you read, but if you follow along in Exodus, there are some more interesting old laws.

So on the "Tree of Knowledge" thing; semantics, I was just pointing it out.


And so it's known, I usually do my research before I commit.

>_< awe come on Ata, don't pick apart the bible like that. You know exactly right that the laws in Exod and Deut were relevant to that time.

Lev 18:22: No man is to have sexual relations with another man; God hates that. - meaning, If God don't like it, don't do it. He forbids sleeping with men, thus the practice of homosexuality.

deutoronomy 21:12-21 - suppose someone has a son who is stubborn and rebellious, a son who will not obey his parents, eveb though they punish him. His parents are to take him before the leaders of the town where he lives and make him stand trial. They are to say to them, ' Our son is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey us; he wastes money and is a drunkard ( he must be old enough to drink, mind you) then the men of the city are to stone him to death, and so you will get rid of this evil. Everyone in Israel will hear what has happened and be afraid. - At this time, in regards to rebellious children, they had no counselors as we have today. Now they understood what a waste this person was, however, he refused to obey his parents, which is a grave sin. If your son refused to obey you, back then, and made a mockery of your name, what would you have done? These people had just came out of egypt years ago and wanted governship. So moses had to Govern them and he gave his inputs. Now that we each have our government and a different punishment, we can clearly present a trial for these cases.

Exodus 21:7-11 - IF a man sells his daughter as a slave, she is not to be set free, as male slaves are. If she is sold to someone who intends to make her his wife, but he doesn't like her, then she is to be sold back to her father; her master cannot sell her to foreigners, because he has treated her unfairly. If a man buys a female slave to give to his son, he is to treat her like a daughter. If a man takes a second wife, he must continue to giver her first wife the same amount of food and clothing and the same rights that she had before. If he does not fulfill these duties to her, he must set her free and not receive any payment. - these were laws regarding slavery, which at the time, existed. The people needed to know what to do. It did not make it any more right, but they needed to know what to do if they were caught in that situation.

There, cleared that up.

Make sure quote the verse to clarify, typing all of that out was a dozy.

"Inspired" is a much better term than "dictated", I'll give you that. But I don't see why a society couldn't come up with countless rules for its people. It would greatly help to control the people, and if the people were told that these rules come from God, well, they're going to start paying attention and following the rules.

Even if they're being disillusioned, you could argue that their sharded beliefs helped the society to progress in a positive diretion.

Take it to PMs Please